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Speeches 


by 
Hon,   Eugene   Hale 


PANAMA  CANAL  APPROPRIATIONS 

AND 

PARTICIPATION  IN  THE  MOROCCO  CONFERENCE  AND  IN 
EUROPEAN  INTERNATIONAL  COMPLICATIONS. 


SPEECHES 


HON.  EUGENE  HALE, 


OF     MAINE, 


UNITED    STATES   SENATE, 


DECEMBER  15  AND  16,  1905, 

AND 

JANUARY  15,  1906. 


6441 


WASHINGTON. 
1906. 


■a 


w 


SPEECHES 

OP 


II  OK   EUGENE    HALE. 


The  Senate  having  under  consideration  the  bill  (H.  R.  480)  supple- 
mental to  an  act  entitled  "An  act  to  provide  for  the  construction  of  a 
canal  connecting  the  waters  of  the  Atlantic  and  Pacific  oceans,"  ap- 
proved .In in-  i's,  1002,  and  making  appropriation  for  isthmian  canal 
construction,  and  for  other  purposes — 

Mr.  HALE  said : 

Mr.  I'kisidknt  :  From  my  information  on  this  subject,  I  think 
the  Government  was  very  fortunate  in  securing  the  services  of 
Mr.  Shouts.  I  know  something  about  him.  He  is  a  man  of 
great  executive  ability.  lie  had  displayed  that  not  only  in  ref- 
erence to  the  railroad  of  which  he  was  president,  but  in  other 
railroad  enterprises.  He  is  a  man  after  the  order  of  mind  of 
the  Senator  from  South  Carolina  [Mr.  Tii.i.man  |  ;  he  is  cour- 
ageous; he  takes  responsibility:  he  knows  how  to  say  "no," 
and,  from  my  acquaintance  with  him,  I  believe  he  has  the  dis- 
crimination tn  settle  the  proper  time  when  to  say  "no;"  and  he 
has  meat  force  and  executive  ability.  I  think  if  he  is  given 
pretty  free  rein  he  will  advance  the  work  down  there  faster 
than  anybody  else  ever  has  advanced  it  or  is  likely  to. 

1  did  not  mean,  in  rising,  to  interrupt  the  Senator  to  go  gen- 
erally into  this  matter.  1ml  as  special  attention  has  been  called 
to  it  1  thoughl  perhaps  the  Senator  might  not  be  unwilling  for 
^  me  to  give  my  views  about  Mr.  Shouts  and  his  relation  to  the 
^        enterprise. 

Now,  as  to  whether  technically  there  has  been  a  resignation 

•  of  his  presidency  of  his  railroad,  I  do  not  know.  I  supposed 
^i  that  he  had  resigned.  I  know  that  when  he  took  up  the  canal 
>-       work  it  was  upon  the  agreemenl  that  he  should  give  his  entire 

i  time  and  ability  to  it  and  that  he  should  in  great   decree  have 

0~-        control   and   not    be  hampered   in   the  work.     lie  is  that  kind  of 

man   thai    he  does  not   desire  any   kind  of  work  unless  he  can 

carry   out   his   views    to   their   ultimate   result.     I    think    I    may 

say  that,  while   I    do  not    know   whether  technically   he  has  pre- 

,         sented    Ins  resignation  or  not,  he  has  given  himself  faithfully 

•  and  his  entire  time  to  this  work. 

S{  Later   in   the  discussion    I    may   have  something  more  to  say 

about  this,   but.  just  at   this   time    1    wanted   to  say   this  of   Mr. 

Shouts. 

v^i  Mr.  TILLMAN.      I  want  the  Senate  clearly  to  understand  that 

y         I  am  not  after  any  particular  man.      I  had  never  heard  of  Mr. 

■«ji         Shonts,  except  through  the  newspapers,  until   his  appointment 

I  saw  him  the  other  day  and  was  favorably  impressed  with  him. 

r<J  6444  3 


426269 


r  have  no  malice  against  him.  I  am  not  gunning  for  him  at  all, 
as  1 1 10  phrase  might  be.  He  may  be  the  right  man  in  the  right 
place;  I  hope  be  is;  but  I  am  merely  dealing  with  the  general 
management  as  we  find  it  and  trying  to  get  at  the  true  inward- 
ness of  i he  situation. 

The  Senator  says  he  thinks  Mr.  Sfconts  has  resigned.  How 
many  times  has  he  been  to  the  Isthmus  in  the  seven  or  eight 

i nl'.s  that  he  has  held  office?    Twice,  I  understand,  and  then 

Cor  a  week  only. 

.Mr.  BALE.     Mr.  President 

The  VICE-PRESIDENT.  Does  the  Senator  from  South  Caro- 
lina yield  to  the  Senator  from  Maine? 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  Oh,  with  pleasure.  If  I  am  misstating  or 
misunderstanding  conditions,  I  should  like  to  be  corrected. 

Mr.  HALE.  My  understanding  is  that  the  law  requires  that 
there  be — I  may  be  wrong — sessions  held  on  the  Isthmus  four 
times  a  year. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  A  session  might  be  an  hour  or  it  might  be 
a  month. 

Mr.  ALLISON.  The  requirement  in  regard  to  sessions  on  the 
Isthmus  is  in  the  President's  ord<  r. 

Mr.  HALE.  It  is  in  the  President's  order,  based  upon  the 
Spooner  Act,  but  I  do  not  think  it  is  contemplated  that  the 
chairman  of  the  Commission  shall  spend  most  of  his  time  on 
the  Isthmus.  The  engineer  necessarily  has  to  do  so,  as  has 
Governor  Magoon. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  Governor  Magoon  has  really  very  little  or 
no  connection  with  the  canal.  It  is  Mr.  Stevens  at  present,  and 
it  was  formerly  Mr.  Wallace. 

Mr.  HALE.  Air.  Stevens  is  engineer  and  does  necessarily 
have  to  reside  on  the  Isthmus,  and  Governor  Magoon  is  part  of 
the  machinery  of  the  whole  thing. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  He  is  running  the  civil  branch  down  there, 
and  he  is  at  Panama. 

Mr.  HALE.  He  is  at  Panama.  But  if  the  civil  machinery 
runs  badly  il  would  interfere  with  the  canal.  He  stays  on  the 
Isthmus.  How  much  time  Mr.  Shonts  has  spent  there  I  do  not 
know,  but,  knowing  him  as  I  do,  I  do  not  believe  he  has  in  any 
way  shirked  any  responsibilities  and  come  away  from  the  Isth- 
mus when  he  was  needed  there. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  I  do  not  charge  that  he  has.  I  am  merely 
trying  to  find  out  how  he  is  discharging  the  great  and  important 
duty  that  has  heen  Imposed  upon  him,  for  which5  he  is  being  so 
well  paid.  I  understand  he  has  only  heen  there  twice — one  week 
in  July  and  one  week  in  October;  and  I  see  in  the  New  York 
Herald  of  this  morning  an  article  from  a  special  correspondent, 
in  which  he  says  that  all  those  from  Washington  connected  with 
the  ( 'anal  <  'ominissioii.  including  Mr.  Shouts,  who  go  down  there, 
art  as  though  they  were  expecting  to  catch  yellow  fever -as  soon 
as  they  uret  off  the  ship  and  they  hustle  at  a  double-quick  to  get 
away.  I  presume  I  would  like  to  gel  away,  too,  if  I  were  run- 
ning that  risk,  but  still  a  man  ought  not  to  be  paid  for  some- 
thing he  does  not  do.  and  at  least  as  the  important  head  of  a 
great  work  it  would  appear  necessary  for  Mr.  Shonts  thoroughly 
to  familiarize  himself  with  all  the  conditions  there  of  any  mo- 
ment and  to  be  able  intelligently  to  direct  from  here  the  cam- 
6444 


paign  In  building  the  canal.  That  is  the  only  contention  I  am 
trying  to  make. 

Mr.  SALE.  The  Senator  has  expressed  that  very  well.  He 
has  expressed  In  words  better  than  I  could  wimt  Mr.  Shonts'e 
duty  is — so  to  inform  himself  of  conditions  there  thai  be  is  able 
to  manage  and  supervise  and  see  that  the  right  thing  is  done. 
I  have  no  doubt  Mr.  Shonts  has  done  just  that. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  I  would  a  heap  rather  have  a  committee  go 
down  there,  run  the  risk  of  getting  yellow  fever,  and  have  B 
flght  with  the  mosquitoes,  and  not  carry  along  a  bucket  of  white- 
wash prepared  t<>  smear  it  on  anything  they  found  wrong,  and 
come  away  and  say  so.  There  are  some  reasons  why  I  have  that 
opinion,  and  I  will  give  them  before  I  get  through. 

I  wish  now  t<>  ask  another  question.  Mr.  W.  Leon  Pepperman, 
who  Is  chief  clerk  of  the  Commission,  or  rather  he  is  assistant 
chief,  as  they  call  it,  is  also,  I  am  informed,  or  was.  an  em- 
ployee or  official  of  the  Clover  Leaf  road,  and  is  still  an  employee 
of  the  Clover  Leaf  road,  and  is  doing  work  for  it.  Is  that  true 
or  not? 

Mr.  HALE.  I  can  only  say  that  I  do  not  know  the  least  thing 
about  it. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  I  am  sorry  we  did  not  go  a  little  more  fully 
into  this  investigation  when  we  had  Mr.  Shonts  and  those  other 
gentlemen  in  the  Appropriations  Committee  room  the  other  day. 
The  thing  was  so  hurried  there  and  there  seemed  to  be  such 
intense  pressure  to  get  this  money  available  that  we  did  not 
really  probe  as  deeply  and  as  thoroughly  into  the  various  phases 
of  the  business  as  I  think  we  ought  to  have  done.  This  phase 
of  it  will  illustrate  the  absolute  necessity,  as  I  take  it,  for  the 
Interoceanic  Canals  Committee  to  begin,  at  the  very  earliest 
date  after  it  has  been  orgauized  and  the  vacancies  have  been 
filled,  to  perform  its  legitimate  functions  as  the  Intermediary 
between  the  Senate  and  the  canal  and  its  control  and  direction, 
and  give  us  light  whenever  we  ask  for  it  and  be  able  intelli- 
gently to  discuss  these  matters. 

Mr.  BALE.  I  agree  entirely  with  the  Senator  that  that 
committee  ought  to  do  that. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  I  do  not  see  how  they  are  going  to  do  it 
unless  they  go  down  there.  I  do  not  want  the  Senate  to  order 
them  off  on  a  kind  of  a  risky  expedition  that  might  involve 
some  of  them  being  hauled  home  on  ice,  but  the  duty  should  be 
imposed  on  somebody,  and  I  confess  I  want  to  see  it  performed. 

Mr.  HALE.  Now.  will  the  Senator  allow  me  for  a  moment? 
This  reference  to  Mr.  Pepperman 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  I  simply  ask  for  Information  whether  or  not 
he  is  still  an  employee  or  an  officer  of  the  Clover  Leaf  road  and 
is  not  engaged  a  good  part  of  his  time  in  transacting  railroad 
business? 

Mr.  HALE.     If  the  Senator  has  Investigated 

.Mr.  TILLMAN".  I  am  asking.  I  want  to  know.  I  want 
somebody  else  to  investigate.     I  can  not  Investigate 

Mr.  HALE.  Nobody  has  any  absolute  knowledge  or  is  infal- 
lible about  this  matter.  I  do  not  believe  it  is  true.  I  doubt 
if  the  Senator  has.  although  he  may  have,  information,  any 
more  than  a  statement  or  rumor,  that*  this  man  Pepperman, 
who  is  employed  on  the  canal  work,  employed  by  the  Isthmian 
Canal  Commission,  employed  by  Mr.  Shouts  as  its  chairman, 
G444 


6 

with  whom  he  had  been  associated  in  railroad  work  before,  who 
certainly  has  duties  enough  to  absorb  all  his  time  and  all  his 
ability,  is  at  the  same  time  employed  by  a  railroad  corporation 
and  is  giving  them  a  part  of  his  time  and  is  being  paid  therefor. 

I  shall  be  very  much  surprised,  Mr.  President,  if  investigation 
by  whomsoever  it  is  made  discloses  that  fact.  Should  it  dis- 
close that  fact,  I  should  say  that  that  is  a  grievance  and  a 
wrong  which  ought  to  be  righted  at  once.  We  hear  a  great 
many  things ;  we  hear  a  great  many  rumors,  and  statements 
are  made  in  reference  to  this  and  that  which  investigation  does 
not  disclose  as  being  well  founded. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  I  am  only  sorry,  as  I  said,  that  we  did  not 
have  more  time,  or  were  not  able  in  the  brief  time  at  our  dis- 
posal, to  make  examination  of  the  gentlemen  before  the  com- 
mittee. If  they  swear  or  say  on  their  honor  that  they  are  no 
longer  connected  with  the  road  and  have  received  no  compensa- 
tion for  work  done  for  the  road,  that  will  satisfy  me. 

Mr.  HALE.     If  we  had  thought  of  it 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  I  say  it  illustrates  the  miserable  policy  we 
are  pursuing,  if  the  Senator  will  permit  me.  As  long  as  the 
House  of  Representatives,  under  its  present  organization — and 
I  have  no  right  possibly  to  mention  it  even,  because  I  want  to 
be  entirely  respectful  to  the  coordinate  legislative  body — con- 
tinues the  policy  of  making  bond  provisions  and  emergency 
appropriations  parts  of  the  same  bill  and  will  not  allow  exam- 
ination, and  the  committee  report  it  under  the  rule  and  gag 
everybody  and  double-quick  it  through  and  send  it  over  here, 
and  then  we  in  less  degree  imitate  their  drastic  processes  and 
double-quick  it  through,  so  long  the  intelligent  performance  of 
our  duties  is  impossible ;  and  having  no  hope  that  the  House  is 
going  to  change  its  procedure,  at  least  in  the  near  future,  it 
impresses  upon  me  the  greater  responsibility  of  the  Senate  to 
legislate  intelligently  and  to  be  able  to  inform  the  country  just 
what  is  going  on,  and  be  able  to  justify  any  appropriations  of 
public  money  and  be  able  also  in  a  measure  to  certify  to  its 
honest  expenditure. 

Mr.  HALE.     Undoubtedly. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.    That  is  all  I  am  trying  to  bring  about. 

Mr.  HALE.  But  the  Senator  will  recognize  the  situation. 
We  were  confronted  with  an  undoubted  and  an  undisputed  ne- 
cessity for  making  this  appropriation  early.  It  did  not  come 
within  our  province  to  go  into  all  of  the  investigation  with  refer- 
ence to  the  situation.  But  I  think  the  Senator  will  bear  me  out 
that  as  a  result  of  the  day,  the  long  day,  which  we  spent  in 
faithful  examination,  in  bringing  these  officials  before  us  and 
searching  them  with  such  questioning  as  brought  out  the  facts, 
and  important  facts,  the  committee  obtained  a  very  valuable 
education. 

Now,  I  do  not  say  that  it  did  all  that  it  could  have  done  if 
it;  had  been  a  committee  to  which  was  intrusted  the  whole  sub- 
ject-matter. If  it  had  been  that  kind  of  a  committee  and  we 
had  gone  into  it  to  that  extent,  it  would  have  taken  weeks,  and 
the  other  committee  of  the  Senate  that  will  take  it  up.  whenever 
it  reaches  it.  \Vill  find  its  work  very  laborious  and  very  ex- 
tended and  most  important. 

But  I  think  the  Senator,  who  has  been  long  a  member,  and 
an  active  and  important  member,  of  the  Committee  on  Appro- 

6444 


priations,  will  see  that,  confronted  as  we  were  with  the  necee 
slty  of  making  this  appropriation,  we  could  not  spend  more  time 
on  it.  The  holidays  were  impending,  it  is  well  known  yon  can 
not  keep  Senators  here  It  will  be  all  that  the  veteran  chair- 
man of  the  committee,  who  has  charge  of  this  bill,  can  do  to 
get  the  bill  in  conference  before  the  House  and  the  Senate  prac- 
tically dissolve,  ami  the  Members  hie  away  to  their  respective 
bomes.  We  bad  that  in  view,  and  the  committee  is  a  practical 
kind  of  a  committee,  dealing  with  all  those  questions,  and  I  do 
not  think  the  Senator  himself,  with  bis  experience  in  the  Senate 
and  on  that  committee,  will  say  seriously  that  he  thinks  we 
have  slighted  the  public  interest  in  not  going  into  all  these  ques- 
tions. 

It  did  not  occur  to  me  that  there  was  any  question — I  never 
heard  it  raised — that  either  Mr.  Shonts,  whom  I  do  know  a 
good  deal  about,  or  Mr.  l'epperman,  about  whom  I  know  little 
or  nothing,  was  still  connected  in  any  way  with  any  railroad 
enterprise  and  not  giving  his  entire  time  to  the  canal  business. 
I  hope  an  investigation  will  show  to  the  Senator  that  while 
this  has  been  stated  to  him,  or  a  memorandum  given  to  him,  he 
will  find  he  is  mistaken  in  that  regard. 

Mr.  ALLISON.  I  wish  to  say  in  addition  to  what  has  been 
said,  and  so  well  said,  by  the  Senator  from  Maine,  that  the  in- 
quiry by  the  Senator  now  in  respect  to  these  two  gentlemen  is 
the  first  intimation  I  have  ever  had  that  either  or  both  of  them 
were  not  giving  their  whole  time  to  this  work  in  which  they 
are  engaged.  I  had  not  for  a  moment  supposed  that  in  the 
examination  we  had  the  other  day  it  was  necessary  to  ask  Mr. 
Shonts  if  he  was  giving  his  attention  to  this  business,  nor  did 
I  for  a  moment  suppose  that  Mr.  l'epperman  was  not  doing  it. 

Mr.  CULBERSON.     Mr.  President 

The  VICE-PRESIDENT.  Does  the  Senator  from  South  Caro- 
lina yield  to  the  Senator  from  Texas? 

Mr.  TILLMAN.     With  pleasure. 

Mr.  CULBERSON.  I  wish  to  say  to  the  Senator  from  South 
Carolina  that  I  have  no  personal  acquaintance  with  Mr.  Pepper- 
man,  but  as  a  member  of  the  Philippines  Committee  I  know  he 
has  been  connected  for  some  time  with  the  War  Department. 
He  was  connected  with  the  Bureau  of  Insular  Affairs  of  the  War 
Department  before  he  had  any  connection  with  the  Panama 
Canal,  as  f  understand.  While  I  am  unable  to  state  positively 
that  he  no  longei  has  any  connection  with  any  railroad  com 
pany,  I  think  it  altogether  improbable  that  be  has  any  such 
connection. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  1  am  not  going  to  be  satisfied,  I  will  state 
right  here,  with  anybody's  belief,  because  beliefs  do  not  answer 
in  this  case.  I  will  take  the  words  of  these  gentlemen  that  they 
have  severed  their  connection  and  the  dates  when  they  did  it. 
That  is  all;  and  there  is  no  need  for  this  quasi  or  indirect 
defense.  The  best  evidence,  according  to  my  knowledge  of  evi- 
dence, is  to  gel  it  direct:  and  these  gentlemen  are  available,  and 
let  us  get  it  direct. 

Mr.  HALE.     Indeed  we  will. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.     Well 

Mr.  HALE.     I  have  just  had  this  statement  given  me: 

Pepperman  was  never  with  the  Clove*  Leaf  or  any  other  road.  He 
has  been  in  the  Government  service  tot  ten  years  or  more     in  the  civil 

govern m    of   the    Philippine    islands   and   chief  clerk   of   the    Insular 

Bureau  before  being  transferred  to  the  canal  work. 
6  1  l  1 


8 

That  is  in  correspondence  with  the  impression  of  the  Senator 
from  Texas  [Mr.  Culberson]. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.     By  whom  is  that  signed? 

Mr.  HALE.     I  do  not  know  who  it  is. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  I  would  rather  the  Senator  would  not  read 
it.  We  do  not  want  any  anonymous  communications  sent  in 
here. 

Mr.  HALE.  I  venture  to  say  it  is  better  authority  and  will 
be  better  borne  out  by  the  facts  on  investigation  than  the  so- 
called  authority  that  the  Senator  has  launched  upon  the  Senate 
and  charged  this  man  with  what  has  never  taken  place. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  I  have  not  charged  it.  I  have  made  an  in- 
quiry. 

Mr.  HALE.     No ;  but  the  Senator  has  stated 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  No;  I  did  not  state.  I  said  it  was  what  I 
have  heard. 

Mr.  HALE.     That  is  it. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.     Very  well. 

Mr.  HALE.     This  is  what  I  have  heard. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  No ;  you  did  not  hear  that.  You  got  that  in 
writing.     You  can  not  even  tell  who  wrote  it. 

Mr.  HALE.  Neither  has  the  Senator  stated  how  he  heard  that 
this  man  ig  still  employed  by  the  railroad  company.  The  Sen- 
ator can  take  this  memorandum.  Nobody  would  send  me  a 
memorandum  unless  he  knew  what  he  was  talking  about. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  It  is  very  easy  to  write  a  thing.  I  want  the 
Canal  Committee,  for  which  I  wanted  to  get  a  job  the  other  day, 
given  some  work.  I  am  afraid  they  will  grow  rusty  unless 
somebody  puts  them  to  work. 

Mr.  HALE.     The  Senator  is  wrong  about  this  man. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  I  hope  I  am.  I  would  be  the  last  one  to 
accuse  a  man  of  something  that  might  be  off  color  or  dishonest. 
I  make  an  inquiry  that  is  very  necessary  to  be  made.  If  you 
get  the  Railway  Guide  of  the  United  States,  you  will  find  Mr. 
Shonts's  name  in  it.  Take  the  Railway  Guide  for  November,  the 
month  just  gone,  and  he  is  still  noted  as  president  of  the  Clover 
Leaf  road,  and  is  published  as  such.  It  may  be  that  the  printer 
had  the  type  stereotyped  and  did  not  take  the  trouble  to  change 
it,  but  I  think  that  the  Clover  Leaf  Railroad  keeps  up  with  the 
changes  in  administration  as  well  as  with  the  changes  in 
schedules. 

Mr.  HALE.  I  can  say  to  the  Senator  that  this  memorandum 
was  handed  to  me  while  on  my  feet  by  the  Senator  from  South 
Dakota  [Mr.  Kittkedge],  who  is  on  the  Committee  on  Inter- 
oceanic  Canals.  It  was  given  to  him  by  a  well-known  corre- 
spondent here  in  Washington,  who  signs  his  name,  and  the  Sen- 
ator can  read  it.     I  think  it  is  Obi. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  I  am  not  sufficiently  interested  in  that  to 
care  to  read  it. 

Mr.  HALE.     I  see  the  Senator  is  not.     I  am. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  I  am  not,  for  this  reason :  If  these  men 
should  state  that  they  are  not  still  connected  with  the  railroad 
and  are  not  getting  paid  by  it  for  work  done  for  it  while  they 
are  getting  pay  from  the  Government  as  canal  commissioners 
and  officers,  I  want  to  know  it.  There  is  so  much  in  the  shape 
of  smoke — stench,  I  had  almost  said — that  I  should  like  to  have 
the  thing  ventilated  fully. 
6444 


Mr.  HALE.  I  hope  the  Senator  will  not  make  any  more 
charges  as  serious  as  this  one 

Mr.  TILLMAN.    I  have  not  made  any  charges. 

Mr.  HALE.     Unless  he  lias  Borne  testimony. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  I  have  qoI  made  a  charge.  I  have  asked  a 
question.  I  thought  you  gentlemen  on  the  other  side  would 
probably  be  able  to  answer  it  authoritatively,  but  you  are  not. 

Mr.  ALLISON.     .Mr.  President 

The  VICE-PRESIDENT.  Does  the  Senator  from  South  Car- 
olina yield  to  the  Senator  from  Iowa? 

Mr.  TILLMAN.      Always. 

Mr.  Aid. I  SOX.  The  Senator  from  South  Carolina  says  he 
has  Information  on  the  subject  or  has  learned  that  Mr.  Shonts, 
for  example,  is  still  president  of  the  Clover  Leaf  Railroad  Com- 
pany. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  1  have  given  the  Railway  Guide,  which  can 
be  found  in  the  Sergeant-at-Arms'  office,  as  authority  for  it. 

Mr.  ALLISON.  I  was  about  to  ask  the  Seuator  if  he  had 
knowledge  of  this  on  yesterday. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  No;  I  did  not.  I  went  in  and  looked  my- 
self as  soon  as  I  heard  he  was  connected  with  the  Clover  Leaf 
road. 

.Mr.  ALLISON.  I  merely  wanted  to  call  attention  to  the  fact 
that  this  Information  was  in  the  possession  of  the  Senator  from 
South  Carolina  yesterday,  and  therefore  he  could  have  asked  the 
question. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  I  did  not  know  yesterday,  but  if  I  had 
know  n  it  yesterday  it  would  have  availed  nothing,  as  it  was 
day  before  yesterday  when  we  had  our  hearing  in  the  Appro- 
priations Committee  room.  1  certainly  would  not  have  gone  out 
without  asking  the  question  if  I  had  known  about  it  then. 

So  much  for  that  Now,  let  us  come  to  another  phase.  In 
the  hearing  we  had  before  the  committee  the  other  day  it  was 
brought  out  that  among  the  appointees  or  employees  of  the 
("anal  Commission  is  one  gentleman  by  the  name  of  Bishop, 
whose  duties  were  pretty  clearly  set  forth  in  that  hearing — I 
will  read  them  directly  bul  about  the  necessity  for  whose  em- 
ployment we  were  not  entirely  satisfied.  I  find  in  the  minutes 
of  (lie  Isthmian  Canal  ( Commission  of  October  30  this  resolution  : 

Upon  motion  of  Commissioner  Ernst,  seconded  by  Commissioner 
Bains,  ii   was 

Rrsoln  il ,  That  t<>  facilitate  the  dispatch  of  current  business  at  the 
Washington  office  of  the  Commission,  the  chairman  be,  and  be  hereby 
is.  empowered  t"  authorize  and  direct  In  writing  the  secretary  of  the 
Commission  or  other  employee  of  the  Commission  to  approve  for  pay- 
ment, under  the  caption  By  direction  of  the  chairman."  vouchers 
for  any  payments  by  ili<-  Commission,  and  to  make  requisition  for  sup- 
plies for  the  maintenance  of  said  Washington  office. 

Mr.  Bishop  is  Mr.  Shonts's  appointee,  and  it  appears  that 
there  are  occasions  when  both  Shonts  and  Pepperman  are  .absent 
from  the  main  office  here,  and  that  it  was  necessary,  in  order  to 
have  the  business  go  on,  for  somebody  else  to  be  authorized  to 
sign.  So  Mr.  Bishop  was  empowered  In  that  resolution  I  will 
deal  a  little  more  fully  with  Mr.  Bishop  by  reading  from  the 
testimony  of  Secretary  Taft  at  the  hearing: 

Senator  Tillman.  I  notice  that  the  secretary  of  the  Commission  gets 
$10.0011. 

Se<  retary  Taft.  res,  sir. 

Senator  Tillman,   i a  the  commission  sit  here? 

Secretary  Taft.    It  dues,  part  of  the  lime. 
•  it  11 


10 

Senator  Tillman.  Practically  all  the  time? 

Secretary  Taft.  Practically  ;    it  sat  here  most  of  the  time. 

Senator  Tillman.  I  say,  practically  all  the  time? 

Secretary  Taft.  Well,  its  minutes  are  kept  here.  The  records  are 
kept  here,  and  a  very  large  part  of  the  clerical  work  is  done  here, 
though  by  direction  it  has  to  meet  four  times  a  year  on  the  Isthmus. 

Mr.  LODGE.     Mr.  President 

The  VICE-PRESIDENT.  Does  the  Senator  from  South  Caro- 
lina yield  to  the  Senator  from  Massachusetts? 

Mr.  TILLMAN.     Certainly. 

Mr.  LODGE.  I  know  the  Senator  has  got  away  from  Mr.  Pep- 
perman.  but  perhaps  he  will  allow  me,  as  I  have  the  official 
record  from  the  Bureau  of  Insular  Affairs,  to  state  that  Mr.  Pep- 
perman  went  to  the  Philippines,  in  our  civil  service,  in  1900,  but 
for  many  years  previous  to  that  he  had  been  an  examiner  under 
the  Civil  Service  Commission  in  Washington ;  that  after  he 
returned  from  the  Philippines,  in  1901,  he  entered  the  Bureau 
of  Insular  Affairs,  where  he  has  remained  until  the  present 
time;  and,  so  far  as  the  Bureau  of  Insular  Affairs  knows,  he 
has  had  no  connection  whatever  with  any  railroad  at  all,  but 
has  been  in  the  service  of  the  Government  for  the  last  ten  or 
fifteen  years. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  That  is  all  right,  but  I  want  Mr.  Pepperman 
himself  to  say.  I  am  not  going  to  take  any  secondary  evidence 
when  I  can  get  the  original  man ;  that  is  all. 

Mr.  LODGE.  That  is  the  report  of  the  bureau  in  which  he 
has  been  employed. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  I  do  not  want  to  appear  to  doubt  the  in- 
tegrity of  purpose  and  the  perfect  honesty  and  honorable  deal- 
ing of  any  of  these  gentlemen.     I  do  not  want 

Mr.  LODGE.  But.  Mr.  President,  the  Senator  from  South 
Carolina,  with  no  authority  that  I  have  heard  him  cite  except 
that  of  rumor,  has  been  casting  very  serious  reflections  on  this 
gentleman.  I  never  heard  of  Mr.  Pepperman  in  my  life  until 
the  other  day,  but  I  think  any  man  is  entitled  to  be  taken  on 
the  official  record  furnished  by  the  War  Department  rather  than 
on  the  rumors  of  newspapers  until  at  least  he  can  be  heard  from. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  I  only  want  to  have  him  heard  from  instead 
of  having  Senators  get  up  here  and  give  us  secondary  evidence. 
That  is  all  there  is  to  it. 

I  have  received  a  communication,  and  I  will  see  what  it  says. 
[After  a  pause,  reading:] 

I  have  just  talked  over  the  phone  with  Mr.  Pepperman,  whom  I 
know  very  well.  He  was  never  and  is  not  now  connected  with  the 
Clover  Leaf  Railroad.  He  has  been  in  Government  service  twelve 
years,  and  I  am  sorry  that  somebody  apparently  has  misinformed  you. 

All  right.     I  apologize  to  Mr.  Pepperman. 

Mr.  SPOONER.  The  Senator's  correspondent  may  have  been 
talking  to  some  other  man  over  the  phone. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  Hardly.  We  almost  always  recognize  the 
voice.  I  could  tell  the  voice  of  the  Senator  from  Wisconsin, 
even  from  Milwaukee,  at  my  house  over  the  long-distance  tele- 
phone. I  will  gamble  on  it.  That  is  a  little  too  thin.  That 
is  some  more  special  pleading. 

I  come  back  to  Mr.  Bishop,  since  Mr.  Pepperman  has  disap- 
peared and  is  not  a  person  who  is  a  little  off  on  drawing  two 
salaries. 

Mr.  SPOONER.  The  Senator  from  South  Carolina  was  a 
little  off. 

C444 


11 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  I  will  Bay  1  was  a  little  off.  I  am  willing 
to  acknowledge  It,  and  when  thai  La  the  caae  will  straighten  up 
things  any  time  and  anywhere.  I  hope  Mr.  shouts  will  comeoul 
of  the  situation  with  equal  credll  to  himself  honestly  1  do.  i 
was  reading  from  the  testimony  of  Secretary  Taft 

Mr.  FORAKER.     What  page? 

Mr.  TILLMAN.     Page  53. 

Senator  TILLMAN.  I  notice  that  particular  officer  [Mr.  Bishop]  be- 
cause I  can  not  see  why  the  mere  keeping  of  the  records  of  the  work 
of  the  Commission  requires  so  much  skill  or  so  much  brains. 

Secretary  Taft.  Be  is  the  historian  of  the  Commission.  He  was 
employed  at  a  time  when  it  was  thought  necessary  t'>  have  a  man  of 
very  considerable  journalistic  experience,  for  the  reason  that  the  attacks 
on  the  canal,  its  construction,  and  the  preposterous  misrepresentations 
concerning  everything,  both  on  the  Isthmus  and  here,  bad  gotten  to 
such  a  point  that  it  seemed  necessary  for  the  Commission  to  protect 
itself  in   some  way. 

Senator  Tillman.  So  he  Is  the  press  agent,  then,  of  whom  we  have 
heard  in  the  debate? 

Secretary  Taft.   Sou  can  call  him  a  press  agent  if  you  choose  to. 

Senator  Tillman.  I  would  not  call  him  that,  except  from  your 
description  of  him. 

Secretary  Taft.  Well,  that  was  added  to  his  duties  as  the  secretary 
of  the  Commission,  the  recorder  of  the  Commission,  and  its  historian. 

Senator  Tillman.  Is  it  the  duty  of  this  Commission  to  run  a  political 
campaign  to  defend  itself? 

Secretary  Taft.  No,  sir;  but  it  is  the  duty  of  the  Commission  to 
correcl  impressions  that  are  circulated  maliciously  for  the  purpose  of 
Interfering  with  its  work. 

Senator  Tillman.  Bui  ought  not  those  to  come  through  you,  through 
official  reports  and  data,  rather  than  through  communications  to  the 
press v 

Secretary  Taft.  No  ;  it  is  not  a  question  of  communications  to  the 
press.  I  can  communicate  matters  to  the  press;  but  the  question  is  of 
running  down  every  misrepresentation  over  this  country.  He  has  a 
record  there  that  would  startle  people — the  stories  that  have  been 
started  with  a  view  simply  of  Impeding  the  work  of  the  canal. 

Mr.  SPOONER.  Will  the  Senator  allow  me  to  interrupt  him 
for  a  moment? 

Mr.  TILLMAN.     With  pleasure,  always. 

Mr.  SPOONER.     Is  the  Senator  reading  from  page  53? 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  I  am  reading  from  page  53  of  the  first  edi- 
tion. I  think  they  have  added  to  it  two  or  three  pages,  and  you 
will  find  it  on  page  54  or  55  in  the  edition  you  have. 

Mr.  SPOONER.  That  is  what  I  wanted  to  interrupt  the  Sen- 
ator for,  1  have  page  53,  and  it  does  not  contain  that  state- 
ment. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  I  gol  the  first  publication  that  was  sent  to 
the  Committee  on  Appropriations,  and  I  have  not  taken  the 
trouble,  having  mailed  my  eopy,  to  go  to  the  newer  and  later 
edition. 

We  have  there  the  statement  by  the  Secretary,  who  is,  of 
course,  at  last  directly  responsible,  for  he  is  Mr.  Shonts'a  supe- 
rior officer,  that  the  Canal  Commission  has  in  its  employ  a  man 
of  ability  as  a  journalist  and  of*  long  experience.  I  think  in 
his  own  testimony  he  stated  that  he  had  been  editor  of  the  New 
York  Herald  or  Tribune,  or  seme  stub  paper,  and  there  is  no 
doubt  about  his  mental  acumen  and  brightness.  We  found  that 
out  very  readily  when  we  began  to  cross-question  him.  They 
pay  this  man  $1().0oo  a  year.  Yet  lie  has  never  been  to  Panama 
and  he  has  no  special  aptitude,  as  1  can  see.  for  any  work  that 
the  Commission  needs  to  have  done.  It  is  not,  I  believe — at 
least  I  have  never  heard  it  before— customary,  to  use  the 
phrase  of  the  Senator  from  Maine:  it  is  an  innovation  in  any 
6444 


12 

department  of  the  Government,  however  important,  to  take  the 
public  money  and  employ  a  man  at  a  high  salary — twice  what  I 
get — to  exploit  its  work  and  to  defend  it  through  the  press. 

It  is  very  evident  that  his  labor,  from  his  own  testimony,  is 
comparatively  light.  The  Commission  meets  only  occasionally, 
all  its  meetings  are  short  ones,  and  the  mere  keeping  of  the  min- 
utes and  the  other  ordinary  work  of  a  secretary,  I  think,  could 
be  done  by  any  first-class  clerk  in  this  city  at  $2,000  or  $3,000, 
which  would  appear  to  me  to  have  been  ample  for  such  a  thing 
or  even  for  a  first-class  newspaper  man.  I  presume  that  we 
have  on  the  newspapers  in  Washington  as  bright  a  class  of  men 
as  this  country  affords,  and  some  of  them  get  very  high  sala- 
ries— William  E.  Curtis,  for  one  that  I  recall,  and  several  others 
whose  pay  goes  up  into  the  thousands.  But  it  is  the  purpose 
of  employing  this  man  that  I  am  criticising  or  discussing ;  and 
he  has  a  clerk  whose  sole  duty  appears  to  be,  according  to  his 
own  statement,  to  read  some  hundred  and  odd  leading  news- 
papers from  all  over  the  United  States,  of  all  the  cities,  and 
mark  every  article  that  is  for  or  against  the  Canal  Commission's 
work,  in  praise  of  it,  or  in  criticism  of  it,  and  anything  that 
strikes  him  as  important  he  submits  to  the  Canal  Commission. 

So  we  find  that  the  process  of  hypnotizing  public  opinion  or 
of  misinforming  the  people  is  in  progress  here  at  a  very  great 
expense;  and  the  first  thing  that  struck  me  when  this  matter 
was  brought  out  was  that  people  who  were  entirely  innocent 
and  who  need  on  defense  would  not  take  the  trouble  to  be  wor- 
ried and  put  a  $10,000  man  at  work  upon  the  duty  of  defending 
them. 

The  Commission  undoubtedly  did  this  by  Secretary  Taft's 
approval  and  also  that  of  the  President,  and  I  can  not  for  the 
life  of  me  see  what  justification  there  is  for  the  public  money 
to  be  spent  in  that  way.  The  press  representatives  in  Wash- 
ington may  some  of  them  be  dirty  and  low  in  their  instincts,  be 
disposed  to  lie  or  misrepresent. 

It  is  charged  by  Secretary  Taft  that  this  crusade,  I  will  say, 
was  an  organized  one,  that  the  effort  to  flyblow  the  work  of  the 
Commission  and  to  belittle  it,  to  confuse  the  public  mind,  had 
gone  to  such  length  that  he  felt  it  absolutely  necessary  to  do 
something  to  defend  the  Commission  and  keep  it  from  losing 
the  confidence  of  Congress.  There  is  mention  made  of  a  con- 
certed, organized  scheme  of  obstruction  which  would,  as  the 
Secretary  feared,  produce  want  of  confidence,  alarm  the  public 
mind  as  regards  the  probable  ultimate  cost  of  the  canal,  and  in 
the  end  defeat  it,  or  if  not  defeat  it  bring  alrfmt  a  retardation  of 
its  construction  that  would  be  beneficial  to  these  railroads  that 
were  mentioned  as  furnishing  the  fund. 

Mr.  GALLINGER.     Hinted  at. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  Mr.  Bishop  said  he  himself  was  offered 
$12,000  by  this  opposing  organization,  and  he  mentioned  the 
three  dead  elements  of  opposition,  the  Nicaragua  route,  the 
Darien  route,  and  the  Tcbuantepec  route,  as  being  in  the  com- 
bine; but  he  was  very  tender  and  unwilling  to  locate  the  rail- 
road opposition.  Now,  that  is  something  which  our  Committee 
on  Interoceanic  Canals  might,  if  it  sees  fit,  find  out,  if  it  is 
worth  while. 

I  asked  Secretary  Taft  if  he  felt  there  was  any  instrumen- 
tality on  earth  that  could  defeat  the  construction  of  the  Panama 

6444 


13 

Canal  now  that  the  Onited  States  lias  gone  aboul  it,  and  he  Bald 
he  did  not  think  It  could,  bul  thai  it  would  retard  it.  and  thai 
is  all  these  people  nope  to  do.  If  they  arc  willing  to  pay 
(12,000  for  Mr.  Bishop  i<»  lead  an  organized  movement  "f  slan- 
der ami  abuse  mikI  misrepresentation  and  lying,  and  all  thai  kind 
of  thing,  it  is  worth  our  while  to  see  whether  there  Is  any  con- 
spiracj  on  fool  here  looking  to  befuddle  the  minds  of  Senators 
and  Congressmen  to  ^et  us  confused, 

I   remarked,   and    1    still    think,   that   as  soon   as   we  get  rid  of 

the  suspicion  which  is  now  abroad,  that  the  Tana!  Commission 
and  its  head,  the  chief  engineer,  and  Mr.  Shonts  and  others 
occupying  the  higher  places  have  gained  the  confidence  <>f  the 

country  and  I  hope  they  will  if  they  have  not  already  got  it — 
that  as  soon  as  they  shall  have  demonstrated  their  business 
capacity  and  their  earnest  zeal  in  carrying  forward  this  great 
work  successfully  at  the  minimum  of  expense,  all  of  this  swarm 
of  gnats,  or  mosquitos,  or  whatever  other  simile  you  might 
use,  of  misrepresentation,  will  disappear  entirely. 

But  I  believe  the  newspapers  of  this  country  would  be  glad 
to  publisb  the  truth.  One  of  them,  the  Herald,  has  now  a 
special  correspondent  on  the  Isthmus  who  is  sending  home  some 
very  interesting  reading,  by  the  way.  which  I  will  bring  to  the 
attention  of  this  body  presently.  While  he  is  only  a  newspaper 
correspondent.  I  happen  to  know  him  personally,  and  I  have 
not  the  slightest  doubt  that  he  is  telling  the  God's  truth  as 
he  sees  it. 

It  looks  like  we  are  almost  as  far  away  from  the  Panama 
Canal  as  we  were  from  the  Philippines.  We  never  could  get 
anything  from  there,  the  trouble  being  that  the  language  shut 
off  the  plaintiff  in  the  case,  and  we  were  the  defendants,  and 
there  never  was  any  indictment  brought  that  would  go  .very 
far.  We  go1  into  the  administration  of  the  water  cure  and 
some  cold  blooded  murders  through  that  instrumentality,  and 
tnere  were  very  unpleasant  incidents  brought  out  in  one  way  or 
another:  but  let  us  hope  for  God's  sake,  for  the  honor  of  the 
country,  that  we  will  have  nothing  of  this  sort  in  the  way  of 
dishonorable  practices  and  peculation  in  Panama. 

Mr.  HALE.      Mr.   President 

The  VICE-PRESIDENT.  Does  the  Senator  from  South  Car- 
olina vield  to  the  Senator  from  Maine? 

Mr.  TILLMAN.     Certainly. 

Mr.  HALE.  I  think  the  Senator  will  hear  me  out  in  this 
statement.  I  think  when  the  statement  made  by  Mr.  Bishop 
was  put  before  the  Committee  on  Appropriations  there  was  this 
general  feeling  about  it.  In  the  flrsl  place.  Mr.  Bishop  himself 
did  not  in  any  way  hesitate  or  qualify  or  give  any  intention  of 
a  desire  to  conceal  his  relations  to  the  Commission.  He  stated 
in  answer  to  questions  put  by  the  Senator,  by  the  chairman. 
and  by  me  that  his  duty  was  as  a  historian,  a  literary  editor  : 
that  his  connection  with  the  Commission,  so  far  as  any  actual 
clerical  or  secretary's  duties  were  concerned,  was  very  little. 
When  we  followed  him  up  he  stated  that  his  method  of  con 
ducting  this  position  as  literary  secretary  and  as  historian  was 
twofold-  first,  to  accumulate  information  for  the  purpose  of 
writing  a  history  of  the  canal,  which  be  will  do  in  due  time. 
and,  next,  to  gather  newspaper  comments  and  Intelligence  from 
the  press  everywhere  and  disseminate  that.  We  asked  for 
6444 


14 

what  purpose,  and  T  used  the  phrase,  "Were  you  doing  this  to 
manufacture  public  opinion?"  His  reply  was,  "Not  to  manu- 
facture," and  I  said  the  phrase  was  not  used  offensively,  hut 
Mr.  Bishop  means  that  it  was  done  for  the  purpose  of  creating 
public  sentiment. 

Now,  I  think  the  feeling  admitted  universally  was  that  it  is 
an  innovation ;  that  for  any  branch  of  the  Government  to  seek 
to  make  public  sentiment  by  incorporating  into  its  duties  a  press 
department  that  shall  communicate  with  the  newspapers  for 
the  purpose  of  creating  public  sentiment  is  what  has  never  been 
done.  Every  great  event  in  our  history  has  been  criticised 
mercilessly.  Every  great  public  man  who  has  illustrated  our 
history  and  our  annals  has  been  cruelly  and  mercilessly  criti- 
cised, and  has  borne  it,  and  has  looked  to  time  and  the  work 
that  he  has  done  to  justify  him.  He  has  not  felt  it  necessary 
to  have  a  press  bureau  in  order  to  create  public  sentiment. 
If  Mr.  Shonts  is  responsible,  or  if  the  Secretary  is  responsible 
for  this  departure  from  all  usage  heretofore.  I  am  bound  to 
say  that  I  think  they  have  made  a  mistake. 

But,  Mr.  President,  sensitive,  as  we  should  be,  to  any  attempt 
of  this  kind  to  incorporate  a  press  agency  with  a  department  of 
the  Government  to  manufacture  or  to  make  public  sentiment,  the 
newspapers  ought  to  be  ten  times  as  sensitve  as  we  are  to  any- 
thing of  this  kind. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.     And  I  think  they  are. 

Mr.  HALE.  The  press  of  the  country  is  a  great  estate.  The 
newspapers  make  great  mistakes  and  are  sometimes  cruelly 
unjust,  both  to  men  and  to  measures.  But  as  a  rule  their  pur- 
pose is  high  because  the  objects  they  seek  are  for  the  public 
good,  and  they  are  a  great  and  beneficent  power  in  the  land. 

But,  Mr.  President,  if  the  Government  or  any  part  of  the 
Government  establishes  as  a  part  of  its  duties  a  press  agency 
to  create  public  sentiment  through  disseminating  their  state- 
ments and  their  reports  to  the  press,  you  have  got  first  a 
prejudiced  press ;  you  have  got  a  selected  pi"ess.  The  news- 
papers are  selected  to  disseminate  this  intelligence  and  make 
this  public  sentiment,  and  at  last,  if  you  have  an  unscrupulous 
Administration,  you  have  a  hireling  press. 

The  preference  that  is  given  by  the  selection  of  newspapers  to 
disseminate  the  Government's  views  in  order  to  make  senti- 
ment before  the  public  is  a  thing  that  the  newspapers  ought  to 
be  more  sensitive  about  than  we.  and  we  ought  to  be  very  sensi- 
tive. I  think  it  was  the  feeling  of  the  entire  committee  that  this 
was  an  innovation,  and  a  most  unfortunate  innovation. 

Mr.  TILLMAN.  The  Senator  from  Maine,  in  his  usual  force- 
ful way,  has  stated  in  better  terms  than  I  could  the  feeling,  as 
I  gathered  it,  of  every  member  who  was  present.  We  do  not 
think  that  it  is  the  business  of  any  department  of  this  Govern- 
ment to  take  public  money  to  undertake  to  bamboozle  us  or  the 
people  either,  or  to  defend  themselves,  whether  they  are  accused 
justly  or  unjustly.  They  must  rely  upon  the  integrity  of  their 
motives  and  the  purity  of  their  administration  to  get  the  confi- 
dence of  Congress  and  the  good  will  of  the  people. 

But,  nevertheless,  we  have  got  this  very  thing  which  the  Sen- 
ator has  condemned  in  such  strong  terms,  and  we  are  paying 
$10,000  for  the  luxury.  I  do  not  know  whether  it  is  an  oriental 
method  or  not,  but  you  know  what  is  meant  by  the  freedom  of 

6444 


15 

the  press.  I  rather  think  this  is  n  Russian  method,  or  a  kind 
of  an  Importation  from  St.  Petersburg  as  St.  Petersburg  used  to 
be,  by  which  certain  things  were  Inspired. 


December  16. 
Mr.  CULBERSON.     I  ask  that  the  amendment  which  I  sub- 
mitted yesterday  be  read 
The  VICE-PRESIDENT.    The  amendment  will  be  read. 

The  Sic  i:i  i  \i:y.  On  page  :i,  line  J2,  it  is  proposed  to  insert 
the  following : 

Provided,  Thai  do  pari  of  the  money  hereby  appropriated  shall  be 
used  to  pay  i in-  expenses  of  a  literary  bureau  connected  with  the  Isth- 
mian ("anal  Commission  or  pay  the  salary,  compensation,  or  allowance, 

by  whatever  oa called,  or  any    person   who  may  be  engaged   in  such 

work  for  <>r  in  behalf  of  said  Commission. 

Mr.  CULBERSON.  Mr.  President,  while  the  purpose  of  this 
amendmenl  is  (airly  obvious,  a  word  or  two  about  it  may  not  be 

Inappropriate.  I'rior  to  the  selection  of  the  present  secretary 
of  the  Commission  that  place  was  held  by  another,  who,  so  far 
as  I  know,  was  thoroughly  competent,  and  who  was  paid  a  sal- 
ary of  $5,000.  On  account  of  the  Inhospitable  climate  of  Pan- 
ama, the  occupanl  resigned  the  position  of  secretary  and  the 
present  occupant  of  that  oftice  was  employed  and  the  salary  of 
the  office  Increased  from  $5,000  to  $10,000.  The  salary  was  in- 
creased because,  In  addition  To  the  ordinary  duties  of  secretary, 
lie  was  constituted  the  historian  or  the  chief  of  the  literary  bu- 
reau,  or  the  literary  secretary  of  the  Commission.  In  the  hear- 
ing before  the  Committee  on  Appropriations  he  stated  what  Ins 
duties  were  with  far  greater  frankness,  in  my  judgment,  than 
did  the  Secretary  of  War  or  the  chairman  of  the  Canal  Com 
mission. 

This  amendment  has  no  personal  feature.  It  is  aimed  at  the 
innovation;  it  is  aimed  at  the  unhealthy  policy  which  is  at- 
tempted by  these  proceedings  to  be  ingrafted  upon  government 
in  this  country.  I  repeat,  Mr.  President,  though  it  is  hardly 
necessary  to  do  so,  that  the  amendment  is  not  aimed  at  a  per- 
sonality. I  never  beard  of  this  gentleman  before,  bu1  he  seems 
to  be  a  gentleman  of  education  and  intelligence,  and.  what  is  of 
far  greater  consequence  in  these  times,  an  honest  and  a  candid 
and  straightforward  man. 

Now  let  us  see  what  he  says.  I  shall  not  weary  the  Senate  with 
a  long  extract  from  these  papers.  When  other  witnesses  under- 
took to  befog  the  situation,  to  lay  stress  on  his  duties  as  secre- 
tary, and  to  minimize  his  duties  as  literary  secretary,  or  chief 
of  the  literary  bureau,  this  gentleman  was  frank  enough  to  say  : 

Senator  Hale.  As  you  said  a  while  ago,  in  answer  to  my  question, 
It  was  understood  you  were  the  literary  secretary? 

Mr.  Bishop,  res, 

Senator  Hai.i:.  Now,  the  keeping  up  of  communication,  the  receh 
lng  of  those  newspapers,  and  so  on,  the  seeing  that  clippings  are  made 
of  criticisms  upon  the  Commission,  seeing  thai  they  are  kept  on  tile, 
and  the  furnishing  of  Information  to  newspapers,  and  the  interviews 
and  speeches  of  the  Secretary  of  War  and  members  of  the  Commission, 
and  keeping  the  general  run  of  the  relations  of  the  Commission  to  the 
public,  that  is  the  main  pari  of  your  duty? 

Mr.  Bishop.   It  is  the  main  part. 

Now.  Mr.  President.  I  have  thought  that  much  was  necessary 
in  explanation  of  the  purpose  of  this  amendment,  and  I  would 
have  more  to  say  about  it  and  about  the  impolicy  of  this  inuo- 
v. it  inn  except  for  the  fact  that  the  lack  of  wisdom  in  it,  to  go 

0444 


16 

no  further,  is  recognized  by  the  Administration,  and  I  am  as- 
sured by  the  Senator  from  Maine  [Mr.  Hale]  that  this  gross 
abuse,  as  I  believe,  of  the  use  of  public  funds  will  be  cor- 
rected in  the  administration  of  that  office,  and  that  no  legislation 
is  necessary.  I  understand  that  the  assurance  comes  directly 
from  the  Administration  that  the  impropriety  of  this  attempt 
to  create  or  to  control  or  to  direct  public  opinion  with  reference 
to  one  of  the  governmental  agencies  has  been  recognized,  and 
that  it  will  be  done  away  with  and  eradicated  without  legis- 
lation. With  that  understanding,  at  the  proper  time  I  will 
withdraw  this  amendment,  but  only,  Mr.  President,  in  con- 
sideration of  that  assurance. 

Mr.  HALE.     I  do  not  wish  to  interrupt  the  Senator 

The  VICE-PRESIDENT.  Does  the  Senator  from  Texas  yield 
to  the  Senator  from  Maine? 

Mr.  CULBERSON.     I  have  not  concluded. 

Mr.  HALE.     I  do  not  wish  to  interrupt  the  Senator. 

Mr.  CULBERSON.     I  yield  with  pleasure  to  the  Senator  now. 

Mr.  HALE.  I  think  it  is  entirely  fitting  that  I  should  say 
something  in  relation  to  this  matter  brought  out  by  the  sugges- 
tion of  the  Senator  from  Texas.  There  is  a  difficulty  in  dealing 
with  this  situation  by  any  legislative  provision.  The  Senator 
has  found  that  difficulty  in  framing  any  legislation  or  language 
that  will  meet  the  real  evil.  The  real  evil  is  recognized  by 
everybody.  As  was  stated  in  the  debate  yesterday,  the  Com- 
mittee on  Appropriations  was  a  unit  that  this  was  an  improper 
thing — that  the  duties  of  the  secretary  of  this  Commission  should 
be  changed  from  an  actual  secretary  dealing  with  the  business 
of  the  Commission  to  the  work  of  building  up  a  press  bureau  to 
deal  with  the  newspapers ;  to  collect  information  and  select 
information  and  then  disseminate  it.  That  is  not  the  business 
of  the  Government  or  any  bureau  of  the  Government. 

The  Committee  on  Appropriations  was  united  upon  this  sub- 
ject. It  believed  it  to  be  an  unfortunate,  unjustifiable,  and  in- 
excusable innovation.  The  establishment  and  continuance  of 
this  office  is  an  administrative  measure.  It  is  difficult  to  frame 
language  that  will  reach  this ;  but  I  am  authorized  to  state  here 
that  the  view  taken  by  the  Senator  in  offering  his  amendment, 
the  view  of  the  Committee  on  Appropriations,  and  of.  I  think, 
perhaps  every  Senator  here,  that  it  is  an  improper  thing  and  a 
useless  thing,  and  leads  not  only  to  no  good  result,  but  may  be 
greatly  abused,  is  recognized  by  the  Administration ;  and  here- 
after the  duties  of  this  secretary,  who,  as  the  Senator  says,  per- 
sonally appeared  well — he  did  not  attempt  to  dodge  or  in  any 
way  get  away  from  the  responsibility  of  answering  questions 
plainly,  but  disclosed  the  whole  situation — hereafter,  as  an 
administrative  measure,  the  secretary  of  the  Canal  Commission 
is  to  be  given  administrative  duties  relating  to  the  work  of  the 
Commission,  and  the  whole  form  and  machinery  of  what  is 
called  this  "  press  bureau  "  is  to  be  discontinued  and  abandoned. 
That  will  be  done  as  an  administrative  measure,  and  there  is  no 
objection  by  anybody  in  the  Administration  to  its  being  done. 
So  I  am  glad  that  the  Senator,  seeing  this  and  recognizing  that 
what  he  seeks  to  accomplish  will  be  accomplished,  is  ready  to 
withdraw  his  amendment,  so  that  we  shall  not  be  embarrassed 
with  the  difficulty  of  putting  into  words  something  that  can  be 
better  done  by  administration. 

Mr.  CULBERSON.  Mr.  President,  I  wish  to  add,  with  refer- 
6444 


17 

ence  to  the  amendment,  that  I  trusi  tiiis  assurance  carries  with 
it  also  the  Idea  thai  this  salary  will  be  readjusted  as  well  as  the 
duties  of  the  place. 

Mr.  HALE.  All  questions  of  salaries  are  to  be  settled  after- 
wards by  another  committee.  I  can  nut  say  to  the  Senate,  as  I 
did  about  the  other  essential  pari,  thai  I  considered  or  brought 

Up    the    matter    of    salary,    hut    when    the    Committee    on     Inter 

oceanic  Canals  takes  up  the  question  of  salaries  it  will  deal 
with  this  as  with  all  other  salaries.  We  did  not  propose  on  this 
bill  to  deal  with  salaries. 


PARI  K  IIWTION    IN    Till      MOROCCO    CONFERENCE     AND.  IN    EUROPEAN 

l.vn.i;  \  \Tlii.v\i,   com  i-i.n   \  !  tONS. 

The  Senate  bavins  under  consideration  the  following  resolution  sub- 
mit ted  this  day  by  Mi-.  Ba< 

"Resolved  in/  tin  Senate,  That  Interference  with  or  participation  in 
any  controversy  between  European  governments  relating  to  European 
International  questions  is  a  violation  at  the  well-settled,  well-denned 
policy  of  this  Government,  which  has  been  recognized  and  observed  for 
more  than  a  rent ury  past  " — 

.Mr.  HALE  said: 

Mr.  President 

Mr.  BACON.  I  promised  1  would  yield  in  a  moment  to  the 
Senator  from  Alabama  I  Mr.  Morgan]  and  that  I  would  call 
his  attention  to  an  Interruption  he  desired  to  make,  so  I  hope 
the  Senator  from  Maine  will  excuse  nte  for  a  moment. 

Mr.  MORGAN.  I  desire  merely  to  make  an  inquiry  of  the 
Senator  from  Georgia  or  any  other  Senator.  I  want  to  know 
whether  we  have  any  authentic  or  official  statement  of  any 
invitation  for  the  <  Jovernment  of  the  United  States  to  partici- 
pate in  this  serious  conference?  lias  that  been  brougb.1  to  the 
attention  of  the  Senate?  1  suppose*,  Mr.  President,  that  the 
character  of  the  invitation  would,  in  a  large  measure,  if  not 
entirely,  determine  the  character  in  which  we  accepted  it.  in 
which  we  are  to  he  represented,  and  the  purpose  for  which  we 
are  to  be  represented  in  that  conference,  if  you  call  it  such. 
Therefore  I  think  the  Senate  ought  to  he  informed  of  the  nature 
of  the  invitation,  so  as  to  see  whether  it  is  proper  for  the 
President  of  the  United  states  to  accepl  it  in  full  or  to  accept  it 

in    part,    or    whether    the    acceptance    of    it    would    create    that 

state  of  entangling  alliance  with  foreign  European  governments 
in  respect  particularly  of  political  questions  that  we  have 
always  denounced  in  every  action  heretofore  taken,  more  par- 
ticularly in  sending  our  delegates  to  the  Panama  conference. 

Mr.   HALE.      Mr.   President 

The  VICE-PRESIDENT.  Does  the  Senator  from  Georgia 
yield  to  the  Senator  from  Maine? 

Mr.  BACON.  Will  the  Senator  from  Maine  allow  me  to  an- 
swer the  question  of  the  Senator  from  Alabama? 

Mr.    HALE.      I    am    called    front    the    Chamber,    and    desire    to 

say  only  a  few  words. 

Mr.  BACON.  I  will  yield  to  the  Senator  from  Maine  |  Mr. 
HALE]  now.  and  will  reply  to  the  Senator  from  Alabama  I  Mr. 
MORG  w  I   later. 

Mr.    HALE.      I    only    desire    to    say.    Mr.    President,    that    I    do 

not   in  the  least    regrel    this  discussion.      1    think    in   .all    matters 

relating  to  not  onlj  action  upon  treaties  submitted  to  the  Senate, 

'•tit    upon    grave   considerations    involving    the    negotiation    of 

i; it  t 2 


18 

treaties,  that  the  participation  of  the  Senate  was  never  by  the 
framers  of  the  Constitution  intended  to  be  shut  out.  I  do  not 
go  so  far  as  some  Senators  have  gone  in  saying  that  until  a 
treaty  negotiated  by  the  President  is  submitted  to  the  Senate 
in  terms  the  Senate  shall  stand  dumb. 

Mr.  President,  in  that  storehouse  of  information  upon  this  sub- 
ject, the  Madison  Papers — and  the  best  form  of  those  papers  is 
the  edition  that  was  authorized  by  a  resolution  of  Congress, 
edited  by  an  eminent  master  of  jurisprudence — whoever  will  go 
back  to  that  fountain  head  of  discussion  and  of  consideration 
of  all  these  great  subjects,  including  the  treaty-making  power, 
will  find  that  the  participation  of  the  Senate  in  all  matters  re- 
lating to  treaties  was  most  jealously  guarded.  Both  Mr.  Rut- 
ledge  and  Mr.  Pinckney  submitted  the  grave  proposition  that 
the  entire  treaty-making  power  should  be  left  with  the  Senate. 
Mr.  Dickinson  and  Doctor  Franklin  believed  that  it  should  be 
left  to  an  Executive,  with  an  executive  council.  Whoever  exam- 
ines that  record  and  goes  to  the  fountain  head  of  information 
will  find  that  the  compromise,  that  was  at  last  agreed  upon 
only  came  after  a  determined  resistance  on  the  part  of  the 
advocates  of  the  power  of  the  Senate,  that  the  Senate  should 
still  be  in  touch  with  all  subjects-matter  attending  foreign  rela- 
tions either  before  or  after  a  treaty  should  be  submitted. 

It  is  said  that  we  may  trust  the  Executive.  I  think  we  may ; 
but  what  would  happen  if  at  some  time  there  was  an  Executive 
that  we  could  not  trust?  What  would  happen  if  an  Executive 
should  desire  to  rehabilitate  his  own  fortunes  or  build  up  the 
waning  strength  of  his  party  by  a  war  issue,  and  the  Senate  be- 
lieved and  was  convinced  that  there  was  danger  of  that?  Must 
the  Senate  wait  until  the  mischief  is  done? 

Mr.  SPOONER.  Will  the  Senator  allow  me  to  ask  him  a 
question  ? 

The  VICE-PRESIDENT.  Does  the  Senator  from  Maine  yield 
to  the  Senator  from  Wisconsin? 

Mr.  HALE.     I  do. 

Mr.  SPOONER.  The  Senator  speaks  outside  of  treaties. 
The  Senator  is  not  referring  to  treaties? 

Mr.  HALE.     I  am  referring  to  steps  that  lead  to  treaties. 

Mr.  SPOONER.  I  should  like  to  ask  the  Senator  what  would 
the  Senate  do  in  such  a  case? 

Mr.  HALE.  I  have  no  doubt,  Mr.  President,  that  if  such  a 
condition  as  that  I  have  touched  upon  arose,  and  it  was  be- 
lieved that  an  Executive  for  such  reasons — they  do  not  apply 
now,  as  I  have  indicated — was  taking  advantage  of  his  power 
to  commit  the  country  to  a  war  policy,  I  have  no  doubt  that  the 
Senate,  in  connection  with  the  House  of  Representatives,  could 
and  would  interfere  by  joint  resolution  and  would  not  let  that 
danger  be  presented  to  the  Republic. 

So,  as  I  say,  I  do  not  go  so  far  as  some  Senators  do  in  be- 
lieving that  the  Senate  can  do  absolutely  nothing  until  a 
treaty  in  form  is  launched  before  the  Senate.  But  I  am  not 
troubled  upon  this  matter  now  by  any  consideration  of  that 
kind.  Under  the  administration  of  this  Government  as  now 
conducted  I  do  not  belive  that  the  Secretary  of  State,  who  has 
immediate  charge  of  all  these  matters,  will  in  any  way  involve 
this  country,  or  let  it  be  involved,  in  any  of  the  controversies 
that  will  arise  out  of  this  conference  between  European 
i lowers.  I  think  we  may  safely  assume  that  the  conservative 
6  HI 


19 

Interests  of  the  country  will  be  guarded  In  thai   res] t,  and 

that  the  Senator  Deed  bave  do  alarm. 

I  wish— 1  am  ool  besitanl  in  savin-  that  I  wish— that  the 
Secretary  of  State  and  the  President  acting  together  bad  de- 
termined cot  t<>  send  delegates  to  this  conference.  The  con 
ference  is.  as  the  Senator  from  Georgia  [Mr.  Bacon]  says, 
not  a  conference  called  to  meel  commercial  questions.  It  is 
a  slmon  pure  outrighl  political  conference.  It  lias  given  rise 
to  greal  excitemenl  :  the  European  press  has  all  been  full  of  it, 
ami.  I  am  sorry  to  say,  Mr.  President,  that  our  press  lias  been 
Cull  nC  it  a  thing  Willi  which  we  have  little  or  DO  concern, 
ami  the  less  concern  that  we  have  with  it  the  better. 

1    (1 1    find    fault.      I    can   see  that  the   Secretary  of   State 

ami  the  President,  being  called  upon,  as  I  think  they  were,  by 
this  little  foughl  over  country  of  .Morocco  to  send  delegates,  de 
termined  to  send  them.  I  can  not  speak  for  the  President  or 
the  Secretary  of  state,  hut  I  should,  if  I  made  a  guess,  think 
thai  If  the  matter  were  to  come  Dp  now.  in  view  of  the  discus- 
sions, in  view  of  all  the  conditions,  the  President  and  the  Secre- 
tary of  State  would  hesitate  to  send  delegates  to  this  conference. 
But  they  have  gone  there. 

The  danger,  .Mr.  President,  is  not  from  the  President  nor  from 
the  Secretary  of  State.  The  danger  of  this  whole  business  is 
the  still  ascending  prominence  of  the  war  sentiment  in  the 
country.  The  President  is  not  accountable  for  that;  the  Sec- 
retary of  State  is  not  accountable  for  that;  we  are  not  ac- 
countable  Tor  that 

I  picked  Dp  a  copy  of  this  morning's  Post,  Mr.  President,  and  I 
have  it  bere.  it  is  a  newspaper  which  deserves  all  that  has 
been  said  of  it  by  the  Senator  from  Georgia.  It  means  to  be  a 
careful  paper,  and  it  is  mainly  a  conservative  paper:  but  the 
Washington  Post  this  morning  has  more  than  a  whole  column 
showing  that  our  danger  of  getting  into  these  complications  and 
getting  Into  entangling  alliances  is  not  from  the  President  nor 
from  the  Secretary  of  State  nor  from  us.  but  from  outside  senti- 
ment. .More  than  a  whole  column  is  given  to  this  Moroccan  ques- 
tion, to  what  will  come  of  it,  to  the  presence  of  our  fleet  at 
Gibraltar,  and  to  the  complications  that  will  result.  In  the 
same  paper,  in  a  little  inconspicuous  place,  is  a  notice  of  a  com 
mon  mine  conference  between  all  the  operators  of  coal,  all  the 
representatives  of  the  transportation  of  coal,  and  all  the  organi- 
zations that  represent  labor  in  the  mining  of  coal  and  its  trans 
portation,  but  it  is  given  no  conspicnousness.  Nobody  thinks  of 
that.     The  trouble  is.  Mr.  President,  that,  umler  the  Incitement 

that  the  military  sentiment  is  constanly  pushing  us  forward  to, 
with  every  officer  of  the  Army  and  of  the  Navy  eager  and  anx- 
ious for  a  complication  that  will  bring  us  into  war.  the  public 
attention  is  drifting  away  from  the  tremendous  problems  that  at 
home  are  clutching  at  the  foundation  of  our  entire  social  and 
business  and  political  fabric. 

I  hope  to  live  long  enough,  it  may  be  I  shall  not,  when  the 
Obscure  Item  which  is  given  in  the  Posl  of  this  great  meeting, 
involving  all  these  great  questions  of  coal  transportation,  of 
coal  mining,  and  the  interests  of  coal  operators,  the  interests 
that  labor  has.  will  excite  some  attention,  and  that  we  will 
cease  to  give  the  best  of  our  thoughl  and  our  agitation  to  these 
foreign  problems. 

We  have  very  little  to  do  with  Morocco.  We  could  negotiate. 
lit  1 1 


20 

If  need  be,  another  commercial  treaty  with  her  in  sixty  days 
by  sending  commissioners  for  that  purpose.  In  this  conference 
between  the  European  powers,  who  stand  with  bands  at  each 
other's  throats,  making  an  excuse  for  intervention  and  a  policy 
that  may  mean  war,  the  question  of  commerce  will  never  have 
an  ounce  of  consideration.  The  subject  of  commerce  and  of 
our  commerce  will  never  have  the  consideration  of  a  moment  in 
that  conference.  It  is  called  for  another  purpose;  the  interest 
in  it  is  in  another  purpose,  and  it  would  he  much  better  if  we 
kept  our  hands  off  of  all  such  things. 

I  wanted  to  say  this,  and  I  want  to  say  that  I  do  not  agree 
with  the  .Senator  in  his  apprehension  that  either  the  President 
or  the  Secretary  of  State  is  going  to  lead  us  into  any  trouble 
in  this  matter.  The  conservative  instinct  will  take  care  of 
that.  We  shall  get  out  of  it  without  being  entangled  in  the 
jealousies  and  strifes  of  the  European  powers.  But  I  think 
this  discussion  itself  is  valuable,  and  I  am  very  glad  it  has  taken 
place. 

Mr.  BACON.  Mr.  President,  I  have  listened  with  great 
pleasure  and  interest  to  what  the  distinguished  Senator  from 
Maine  has  said.  I  agree  with  him  in  almost  everything  he  has 
said,  and  I  will  indicate  a  little  later  wherein  I  unfortunately 
differ  from  him,  as  slight  as  that  difference  may  be.  I  certainly 
agree  with  him  decidedly  as  to  the  principles  announced  on  all 
matters.  I  thoroughly  agree  with  him.  and  not  only  so  but  I 
believe  that  nine  out  of  ten  men  who  have  heard  him  to-day 
agree  with  him  as  to  the  principles  which  he  has  announced, 
and  as  to  the  policy  which  we  should  observe  and  of  which  we 
should  be  regardful.  I  do  not  expect  to  hear  any  Senator  rise  in 
his  place  to-day  and  take  issue  with  him  as  to  these  principles 
and  policies.  There  is  but  one  point  upon  which  I  differ  from 
the  learned  Senator.  As  I  understand  the  position  of  the  Sena- 
tor, he  very  frankly  says  that  he  would  have  preferred  if  we 
had  not  been  parties  to  this  conference,  and  he  gives  the  sound- 
est and  the  best  and  most  unanswerable  reasons  why  his  pref- 
erence in  that  matter  is  well  founded.  But  he  says  that  in  this 
particular  case  we  have  no  particular  reason  to  fear. 

Well,  Mr.  President,  I  do  not  believe  that  any  great  injury  is 
going  to  come  to  us  out  of  this  particular  case,  because  I  be- 
lieve, as  I  hope,  that  it  is  going  to  be  settled  peaceably  ;  but  the 
question  as  to  whether  it  is  a  prudent  thing  to  do  is  not  to  he 
settled  by  the  question  of  what  is  most  likely  to  happen;  it  is  to 
be  considered  in  the  light  of  what  may  possibly  happen.  I  put 
to  the  Senator  a  question  upon  the  result  of  this  conference  as 
to  Germany,  for  instance,  and  I  only  speak  of  these  countries 
because  of  the  facts  involved,  and  it  does  not  relate  in  any 
manner  to  any  relation  between  us  and  these  countries,  and 
consequently  there  is  no  indelicacy  in  speaking  of  it.  If  the 
result  of  this  conference  should  he  one  which  Germany  would 
refuse  to  abide  by.  what  would  result?  Where  would  stand  the 
United  States?  Suppose,  for  instance,  as  is  given  out  in  the 
papers— and  who  will  doubt  it? — the  European  governments  are 
looking  to  the  United  States  as  one  power  which  is  to  exercise 
a  irroat  influence  in  determining  what  shall  he  the  order  and 
decree  of  that  conference.  It  may  he  that  there  is  a  tie  vote 
except  the  vote  of  the  United  States,  which  may  he  the  one  to 
decide  upon  the  judgment  and  order  of  the  conference.  It  may 
be  that  the  deciding  vote  of  the  United  States  shall  determine 

r,  i  II 


21 

a  policy  to  which  Germany  will  objecl  and  on  account  of  which 
she  will  ^>  to  w Mr. 

Mr.  ii.M.K.     Now,  i  should  bop< 

Mr.  BACON.  I  hope  the  Senator  will  pardon  me  and  let  me 
finish.  I  always  listen  to  him  with  the  greatesl  pleasure,  bu1  it 
Is  better  that  1  should  finish  the  proposition 

Mr   HALE.     Very  well. 

Mr.  BACON.  Because  there  is  another  alternative  thai  I 
wish  to  put,  and  1  shall  then  be  more  than  glad  t<>  hear  the  Sena- 
tor, as  he  always  enlightens  every  question  which  he  touches. 

Suppose  that  in  the  vote,  .-is  I  was  saying,  it  should  turn  out 
as  the  result  that  i he  determination  was  reached  in  consequence 
of  the  casting  vote  of  the  United  states  Government,  and  thai 
on  account  of  the  decree  and  order  of  that  conference  Germany 
should  refuse  to  abide  by  whal  it  should  thus  determined  and 
should  go  to  war.  where  would  stand  the  Government  of  the 

United    States?      I    understand    the   Senator,   and    I    hope   he   will 

reply  afterwards,  because  I  will  be  more  than  glad  to  have  him 
do  so. 

Mr.  President,  when  European  nations  get  together  in  a  con- 
ference for  the  purpose  of  settling  a  question  on  account  of 
which  war  is  threatened,  there  is  an  implied  and  moral  obliga- 
tion, in  the  first  place,  that  they  will  abide  by  the  judgment  and 
decree  of  the  conference;  and  there  is  an  implied  and  a  moral 
Obligation,  in  the  second  place,  that  if  any  power  refuses  to 
abide  by  the  decree  of  thai  conference  those  who  thus  agree  to 
it  will  compel  its  obedience.  They  are  not  there  Cor  idle  play. 
They  arc  not  there  for  the  solution  of  abstrad  conundrums. 
They  are  there  for  the  practical  and.  if  need  be,  the  forcible 
settlement  of  great  questions  upon  which  will  depend  the  powers 
of  the  world  and  who  shall  exercise  them. 

When  they  agree  to  gel  together  in  the  conference  the  coun- 
try which  consents  to  that  conference  and  then  refuses  to  abide 
by  it  is  at  war  witii  all  the  others,  and  all  the  others  are  under 
a  moral  obligation  to  enforce  it.  To-day  a  large  part  of  Europe, 
an  important  part  of  it.  is  regulated  and  controlled  by  the  decree 
of  the  Berlin  conference.  If  there  should  he  on  the  part  of  any 
one  of  the  signatory  powers  an  infraction  of  that  decree,  every 
government  a  parts-  to  that  decree  is  under  a  moral  obligation 
to  support  every  other  power  in  the  enforcement  of  that  decree. 
The  United  state-  can  not  take  part  in  that  conference,  it  can 
not  lie  one  to  decide  by  its  vote  what  shall  he  the  decree,  and 
then  refuse  to  assist  in  the  enforcement  of  the  decree. 

Now,  I  have  one  more  suggestion  to  make,  if  the  Senator  will 
pardon  me.  It  will  he  very  short,  and  he  can  answer  them 
both  together,  because  they  are  cognate.  Suppose,  as  in  the 
European  press  it  is  suggested,  that  possibly  the  American  dele- 
gates will  not  vote,  hut  that  they  will  simply  counsel  and  advise, 
and  suppose,  in  consequence  of  that  counsel  and  advice  there 
is  a  result  reached  which  otherwise  would  not  he  reached,  he- 
cause  sometimes  a  man's  counsel  and  advice  is  worth  very  much 
more  than  his  vote,  as  is  the  case  with  the  learned  ami  honor 
able  Senator  from  Maine.  Yet  the  moral  obligation  upon  the 
United  states,  which  would  thus  he  Imposed  by  its  action  would 
be  no  less  greal  than  the  moral  obligation  in  case  ir  had  itself 
voted.  In  either  case  to  shirk  the  responsibility  of  the  result 
brought  about  by  its  own  act  would  he  a  pusilanimity. 

Now    I     will    hear    from    the    Senator,    although     I     have    not 
6444 


22 

quite  completed  what  I  hnd  to  say  in  response  to  his  valuable 
suggestions. 

Mr.  HALE.  The  point  on  which  the  Senator  arrested  my 
attention  was  the  proposition  that  it  might  happen,  not  upon 
some  matter  touching  commerce,  not  upon  some  matter  affect- 
ing our  trade,  but  upon  some  matter  vitally  affecting  the  peace 
of  Europe,  that  there  might  be  a  drawn  condition  among  them, 
and  that  the  vote  of  the  delegates  from  the  United  States  would 
decide  the  result. 

My  mind,  Mr.  President,  is  as  clear  as  crystal  upon  what 
should  be  done  and  what  I  believe  would  be  done  in  such  a 
grave  emergency.  Conferences  to-day  are  not  like  the  old- 
fashioned  world  conferences,  where  the  world  learns  the  result 
after  weeks  and  weeks  have  passed,  where  battles  are  fought 
after  treaties  have  been  concluded,  hut  every  nation  is  in  hourly 
and  momentary  touch  with  its  representative  in  any  great  con- 
ference. 

I  should  have  no  doubt  that  in  such  a  condition,  in  such  a 
grave  emergency  as  the  Senator  has  arrayed  before  us,  the  Sec- 
retary of  State  would  telegraph,  with  the  approval  of  the  Presi- 
dent, that  the  United  States  delegation  should  decline  absolutely 
participation  in  that  vote. 

Mr.  BACON.  But,  if  the  Senator  will  pardon  me,  would  it  not 
be  better  that  they  should  be  kept  away  from  there  altogether1? 

Mr.  HALE.  They  are  there.  I  wish  they  were  not,  but  they 
are  there ;  and  when  it  comes  to  a  critical  condition,  if  it  ever 
does,  I  should  have  no  doubt  that  Secretary  Root,  backed  up  by 
the  President,  would  send  a  swift  dispatch  over  the  wires  that 
in  these  conditions  the  American  delegation  is  instructed  not  to 
vote.  and.  if  need  be,  to  emphasize  its  absolute  declination  to  par- 
ticipate in  the  grave  problems  that  are  confronting  the  powers 
of  Europe,  to  withdraw  from  the  conference  and  return  home. 

Mr.  BACON.     Exactly. 

Mr.  HALE.  But  I  do  not  agree  with  the  Senator  in  his  inti- 
mation that  that  would  involve  any  pusillanimity  on  our  part. 
That  is,  we  do  not  go  into  the  conference  in  the  way  European 
powers  do.  The  reason  that  is  given  is  a  slight  one — the  com- 
mercial relations ;  and  if  the  other  things,  which  mean  war, 
horrid  war,  between  European  powers,  jealous  of  each  other, 
confront  that  conference  and  our  deciding  vote  shall  settle  it 
either  way,  I  have  no  more  doubt  than  I  doubt  that  I  stand 
here  before  the  Senate,  the  Administration  would  withdraw  our 
delegates  absolutely,  if  necessary,  and  that  Europe  would  go  on 
and  fight  its  own  fights  out  and  take  the  dread  arbitrament  of 
war,  in  which  we  have  no  part  and  ought  to  have  no  part.  1 
would  not  be  troubled  in  the  least  by  the  situation  that  the 
Senator  has  pictured. 

Mr.  BEVERIDGE.    Mr.  President 

The  VICE-PRESIDENT.  Does  the  Senator  from  Georgia 
yield  to  the  Senator  from  Indiana? 

Mr.  BACON.  I  hope  the  Senator  will  allow  me  to  reply  to  the 
Senator  from  Maine. 

Mr.  BEVERIDGE.  I  wish  to  ask  only  a  question  for  informa- 
tion. How  many  European  powers  are  requested  to  attend 
this  conference?  Senators  have  been  talking  about  a  deciding 
vote.    I  think  there  are  seven. 

Mr.  BACON.  So  far  as  I  can  gather  from  the  public  press, 
6444 


23 

France,    Germany,    Great    Britain,    Austria.    Italy.    Spain,    and 
Russia. 

Mr.  BBVERIDGE,     Seven.     Bo  there  can  not  be  a  tie  vote  of 

seven. 

Mr.  BACON.    Ob,  well. 

Mr.  PRESIDENT.     Bui  the  Senator  talks  about  a  deciding  vote, 

Mr.  BACON.  Possibly  one  of  them  mighl  withdraw.  We  can 
not  tell. 

Mr.  President,  replying  to  the  Senator  from  Maine,  as  I 
catch  the  meaning,  the  kernel  of  the  Senator's  suggestion,  when 
reduced  to  its  last  analysis,  it  at  last  comes  hack  to  what  the 
Senator  has  substantially  stated,  although  with  very  much  more 
point  than  my  words,  to  wit.  that  we  really  have  no  business 
there.  What  the  Senator  has  last  said,  when  reduced  to  iis 
last  analysis,  means  that  we  have  no  husiness  there,  because. 
according  to  the  Suggestion  of  the  Senator,  it'  the  time  ever 
comes  when  what  we  are  to  do  is  to  influence  the  action  of  that 
convention  our  delegates  should  he  telegraphed  to  withdraw 
from  it.  As  the  Senator  says,  we  have  no  husiness  there:  it  is 
a  mere  matter  of  tinsel,  so  tar  as  that  goes,  a  mere  parade,  SO 
that  we  may  hereafter  he  classed  \iith  the  great  war  powers,  a 
mere  sending  of  delegates  to  cooperate  with  delegates  from 
European  powers  as  a  matter  of  pompous  show  and  display. 
with  the  simple  understanding  that  they  are  there  merely  as  a 
matter  of  ornament  and  not  to  accomplish  anything,  not  to 
attend  to  anything;  but  that  if  it  reaches  a  point  where  their 
participation  will  determine  The  result  they  will  he  telegr. 
to  withdraw.     If  so.  why  are  they  there  at  all? 

This  construction  of  his  last  utterance  is  all  consistent  with 
what  the  Senator  from  Maine  says.  The  Senator  from  Maine 
said  in  his  previous  remarks  that  he  not  only  wishes  that  they 
were  not  there,  but  he  has  practically  said  that  they  have  no 
business  there;  that  we  have  nothing  to  accomplish  there  for 
the  good  of  this  Government,  hut  that  we  have  great  dangers 
to  incur  to  this  Government  on  account  of  our  participation. 

Then  he  goes  further  to  express  nis  confidence  in  the  Presi- 
dent and  Secretary  of  State,  and  says  if  it  should  turn  out 
that  our  presence  there  would  lie  a  matter  which  would  exer- 
cise an  influence  on  the  determination  of  these  grave  questions 
by  the  conference,  his  mind  is  clear  as  crystal  that  they  would 
be  instructed  to  withdraw  from  it.  I  quite  agree  with  the 
Senator.     I  have  no  doubt  of  that. 

Bui  I  want  to  follow  still  further  the  suggestion  of  the  Sena- 
tor in  the  first  part  of  his  interesting  remarks  as  to  whether  or 
not  he  would  agree  with  me  in  my  present  contention  so  far  as 
regards  the  present  instance.  Mr.  President,  if  we  concede  all 
that  the  Senator  says,  if  we  recognize  the  propriety  and  cor- 
rectness of  his  want  of  concurrence  in  the  propriety  of  mingling 
in  such  matters,  is  the  question  as  to  such  propriety  met  by  the 
suggestion  that  in  tiie  present  case  there  is  such  confidence  in 
the  President  and  in  the  Secretary  of  State  that  no  harm  will 
come,  that  no  harm  will  come  in  this  Instance  because  of  the 

Confidence  of   the   Senator   that   we   now    have   a    good    President 
and  a  wise  President  and  a  good  and  wise  Secretary  of  State'.' 

Conceding  that  no  harm  will  come,  and  conceding  the  sound- 
ness of  all  the  confidence  which  he  expresses  in  these  high  and 
distinguished  officers,  does  the  Senator  shut  his  eyes  to  the  fact 
that  we  are  establishing  a  precedent?     if  a  good  President  and 

644-1 


426269 


24 

a  wise  President  and  a  good  Secretary  of  State  and  a  wise  Sec- 
retary  of  State  and  a  patriotic  President  and  a  patriotic  Secre- 
tary of  State  can  send  delegates  to  a  European  conference  TelaJ 
tive  to  European  international  controversies,  can  not  an  unwise 
President  do  it?  ("an  not  an  unwise  Secretary  of  State  do  it? 
Can  not  a  President  not  so  good  and  not  so  patriotic  and  a  Sec- 
retary of  State  not  so  good  and  so  learned  and  so  patriotic  as 
the  Senator  believes  these  officers  to  be  also  do  it? 

Mr.  HALE.     Mr.  President 

The  VICE-PRESIDENT.  Does  the  Senator  from  Georgia 
yield  to  the  Senator  from  Maine? 

Mr.  BACON.     Certainly. 

Mr.  HALE.  I  have  already  stated  that  such  a  condition 
might  happen.  There  might  be  an  Executive  and  an  Adminis- 
tration that  believed  a  policy  which  embroiled  us  in  war  would 
be  to  the  advantage  of  the  President  or  the  Administration  in 
precipitating  a  war.  I  have  felt  that  we  have  a  safe  standing 
with  the  present  President  and  Secretary  of  State,  and  that  can 
not  result. 

And  I  do  not  believe  that  in  such  a  condition  the  Senate  and 
House  of  Representatives  are  robbed  of  all  power  and  must 
wait  until  the  mischief  is  done.  The  Senate  is  not  an  eleventh- 
hour  body.  It  has  not  got  to  wait  until  the  horse  is  stolen. 
There  would  be  under  such  condition  the  right  in  Congress  to 
arrest  and  prevent  the  great  calamity  which  would  fall  upon  the 
country  from  such  an  Administration. 

Mr.  BACON.  I  quite  agree  with  the  Senator  in  that  opinion 
as  to  the  powers  and  duties  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  NEWLANDS.     May  I  ask  the  Senator  a  question? 

Mr.  BACON.  If  the  Senator  from  Nevada  will  permit  me  to 
reply  to  the  Senator  from  Maine  first,  I  will  then  yield  with 
pleasure. 

I  quite  agree  with  the  Senator  from  Maine  in  that  regard.  Mr. 
President,  and  I  am  only  replying  to  so  much  of  what  he  said 
as  might  be  construed  into  a  consent  on  his  part  to  the  propriety 
of  such  interference  and  such  entanglement  in  a  case  where 
there  happened  to  be  a  good  President  and  a  good  Secretary  of 
State.  I  said  in  the  earlier  part  of  my  remarks  that  this  rule 
is  an  absolute  rule.  It  is  not  a  rule  with  qualifications.  It  is 
not  a  rule  with  exceptions.  It  is  a  rule  absolute  and  without 
exceptions  that  not  only  when  we  have  a  good  President  or  when 
we  have  a  good  purpose  are  we  to  abstain  from  these  entangle- 
ments, and  not  only  when  we  fail  to  have  them  are  we  going  to 
abstain  from  such  entanglements,  but  also  whether  we  have  a 
good  President  or  a  bad  President  we  are  to  abstain,  because  the 
rule  must  apply  equally  in  each  case. 

I  was  simply  endeavoring  to  point  out  that  while  the  Sena- 
tor might  be  free  from  apprehensions  on  account  of  the  particu- 
lar facts  in  this  case  and  the  particular  officials  involved,  still 
we  are  engaged  in  a  matter  which  establishes  a  precedent,  a 
precedent  which  may  be  followed  in  the  future,  and  followed 
by  one  not  good  and  not  wise  who  may  sit  in  the  Executive 
chair,  because  it  is  altogether  possible  that  there  may  be  such  a 
fate  in  store  for  this  country.  The  time  was  when  a  man  who 
was  not  a  good  man  had  a  tie  vote  for  the  Presidency  of  the 
United  States,  a  man  who  afterwards  was  tried  for  treason  to 
the  United  States.  Now  I  will  hear  the  Senator  from  Nevada. 
6444 

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